Editor's note. Thanks go to Cathy Cleaver Ruse, Esq., Director of Planning and Information, Secretariat for Pro-Life Activities, U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, who has assembled testimony from the three lawsuits challenging the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act. The following excerpts, from the case being heard in New York City, are taken from information provided by Ms. Ruse. The transcripts in their entirety can be found at www.usccb.org/prolife/index.htm.
DAY TWO, March 20. The following is from the testimony of abortionist Dr. Amos.
THE COURT [Judge Richard Casey]. Doctor, you mentioned earlier today that you believe in full disclosure to your patients as to the procedures and the various possibilities that are available.
THE WITNESS. Yes, I do.
THE COURT. And that you spell out for the woman just what is entailed in a D&E that involves dismemberment, correct.
THE WITNESS. Yes, I do.
THE COURT. You also spell out that if you are doing an intact D&E or D&X or partial-birth abortion, whichever term is used, that entailed a partial delivery, and then the procedure you described of inserting the scissors in the base of the skull and using a suction devise to remove the brain.
THE WITNESS. Yes, I do.
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THE COURT. And that some of them desire that [a partial-birth abortion] because after the procedure if they want to see or hold the dead fetus, is that correct?
THE WITNESS. Yes.
THE COURT. I believe you mentioned also take pictures, is that correct?
THE WITNESS. Yes. That is part of our common policy - - it changed about ten years ago - - that we take pictures.
THE COURT. This is part of the grieving process?
THE WITNESS. Absolutely. We have been told by grieving counselors to take pictures of all dead fetuses and babies - - specifically babies, but also fetuses - - so there is a memory of the baby by the mother.
DAY THREE: Excerpts from the testimony of abortionist Dr. Timothy Johnson in response to the attorney for the National Abortion Federation:
Q. Do you have an opinion, Dr. Johnson, as to which of the two D&E variations, the intact or the dismemberment variation, may best facilitate the extraction of the fetal skull during an abortion procedure?
A. I think that the intact procedure is actually developed in part to deal with the problem of the fetal skull. When one does a D&E, technically one of the challenges is to remove the fetal skull, partly because it is relatively large, partly because it is relatively calcified, and it is difficult to grasp on occasion. So one of the common technical challenges of a dismemberment D&E is what is called a free-floating head or a head that has become disattached and needs to be removed. This can lead to more passages of instruments through the cervix. And technically it is difficult to grasp the head; it is round, it slips out of the instruments that we generally use. Either those instruments or the head can be extruded outside the uterus and cause perforation.
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Q. Did you make any observation of the way the physician performing that intact D&E effected the incision into the skull?
A. In the situations that I have observed, they either - - actually, the procedures that I have observed, they all used a crushing instrument to deliver the head, and they did it under direct vision.
Q. Thank you, Doctor.
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THE COURT: Can you explain to me what that means.
THE WITNESS: What they did was they delivered the fetus intact until the head was still trapped behind the cervix, and then they reached up and crushed the head in order to deliver it through the cervix.
THE COURT: What did they utilize to crush the head?
THE WITNESS: An instrument, a large pair of forceps that have a round, serrated edge at the end of it, so that they were able to bring them together and crush the head between the ends of the instrument.
THE COURT: Like the cracker they use to crack a lobster shell, serrated edge?
THE WITNESS: No.
THE COURT: Describe it for me.
THE WITNESS: It would be like the end of tongs that are combined that you use to pick up salad. So they would be articulated in the center and you could move one end, and there would be a branch at the center. The instruments are thick enough and heavy enough that you can actually grasp and crush with those instruments as if you were picking up salad or picking up anything with - -
THE COURT: Except here you are crushing the head of a baby.
THE WITNESS: Correct.
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THE COURT: An affidavit I saw earlier said sometimes, I take it, the fetus is alive until they crush the skull?
THE WITNESS: That's correct, yes, sir.
THE COURT: In one affidavit I saw attached earlier in this proceeding, were the fingers of the baby opening and closing?
THE WITNESS: It would depend where the hands were and whether or not you could see them.
THE COURT: Were they in some instances?
THE WITNESS: Not that I remember. I don't think I have ever looked at the hands.
THE COURT: Were the feet moving?
THE WITNESS: Feet could be moving, yes.
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THE COURT: If you are all finished let me just ask you a couple questions, Dr. Johnson. I heard you talk a lot today about dismemberment D&E
procedure, second trimester; does the fetus feel pain?
THE WITNESS: I guess I - -
THE COURT: There are studies, I'm told, that says they do. Is that correct?
THE WITNESS: I don't know. I don't know of any - - I can't answer your question. I don't know of any scientific evidence one way or the other.
THE COURT: Have you heard that there are studies saying so?
THE WITNESS: I'm not aware of any.
THE COURT: You never heard of any?
THE WITNESS: I'm aware of fetal behavioral studies that have looked at fetal responses to noxious stimuli.
THE COURT: Does it ever cross your mind when you are doing a dismemberment?
THE WITNESS: I guess whenever I - -
THE COURT: Simple question, Doctor. Does it cross your mind?
THE WITNESS: Does the fetus having pain cross your mind?
THE COURT: Yes.
THE WITNESS: No.
THE COURT: Never crossed your mind.
THE WITNESS: No.
THE COURT: When you have done D&Es or when you have done abortions, do you tell the woman various options that are available to her?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: And do you explain what is involved like in D&E, the dismemberment variation? Do you tell her that?
THE WITNESS: We would describe the procedure, yes.
THE COURT: So you tell her the arms and legs are pulled off. I mean, that's what I want to know, do you tell her?
THE WITNESS: We tell her the baby, the fetus is dismembered as part of the procedure, yes.
THE COURT: You are going to remove parts of her baby.
THE WITNESS: Correct.
THE COURT: Are you ever asked, Does it hurt?
THE WITNESS: Are we ever asked by the patient?
THE COURT: Yes.
THE WITNESS: I don't ever remember being asked.
THE COURT: And although you have never done an intact D&E, do you know whether or not the incision of the scissors in the base of the skull of the baby, whether that hurts?
THE WITNESS: Well, I guess my response would be I think that the baby feels it but I'm not sure how pain registers on the brain at that gestational age. I'm not sure how a fetus at 20 weeks or 22 weeks processes and understands pain.
THE COURT: You have never done one of these procedures but did you ever ask what - - you say you know about it clinically, did you ever ask one of those who perform them whether it hurts the fetus?
THE WITNESS: No, sir.
THE COURT: When you describe the possibilities available to a woman do you describe in detail what the intact D&E or the partial birth abortion involves?
THE WITNESS: Since I don't do that procedure I wouldn't have described it.
THE COURT: Did you ever participate with another doctor describing it to a woman considering such an abortion?
THE WITNESS: Yes. And the description would be, I would think, descriptive of what was going to be, what was going to happen; the description.
THE COURT: Including sucking the brain out of the skull?
THE WITNESS: I don't think we would use those terms. I think we would probably use a term like decompression of the skull or reducing the contents of the skull.
THE COURT: Make it nice and palatable so that they wouldn't understand what it's all about?
THE WITNESS: No. I think we want them to understand what it's all about but it's - - I think it's - - I guess I would say that whenever we describe medical procedures we try to do it in a way that's not offensive or gruesome or overly graphic for patients.
THE COURT: Can they fully comprehend unless you do? Not all of these mothers are Rhodes scholars or highly educated, are they?
THE WITNESS: No, that's true. But I'm also not exactly sure what using terminology like sucking the brains out would - -
THE COURT: That's what happens, doesn't it?
THE WITNESS: Well, in some situations that might happen. There are different ways that an after-coming head could be dealt with but that is one way of describing it.
THE COURT: Isn't that what actually happens? You do use a suction device, right?
THE WITNESS: Well, there are physicians who do that procedure who use a suction device to evacuate the intercranial contents; yes.